. >> i'm wholeheartedly, unswervingly against any esteemed laws outlawing people because of their religious political, social or economic ideas. i'm against it because it's a violation of the constitution of the united states and bill of rights and clearly so. >> jennifer: something about that language that is fantastic. how important were the debates prior to the television era? >> well, it is a great question. it was one where you played the lincoln/douglas debates. we all talk about that. really from 1858 1960, john f. kennedy versus richard nixon, debates didn't play that big a role in presidential campaigns. there were no presidential debates. but you did have in primaries occasionally, squareoffs going on. interesting to even think about stats from minnesota rarely run for president -- stacken ran for president every four years. kennedy/nixon was the game changer in debate history. people that listened to it thought nixon won on radio but on television, john f. kennedy won. nobody was that happy with the debates. we had no debates in '64 '68 '72. came back in 1976 when jimmy carter en